(note: the title refers to the app, not the presentation)
10 things I want to say about Fame League...
10 things I want to say about Fame League...
1) It is in no way fun at all.
2) The first time I tried to play it, I left within a minute because of the annoying music.
3) It spams your friends when you add the game WITHOUT informing you before hand.
4) Even though it runs you through a tutorial.... I have no idea how to play the game
5) Is it even really a facebook app? It uses a iFrame to a website which is independent of facebook.
6) There are too many options and functions.
7) The UI is extremely unintuitive.
8) Important information like time left before market closes is hard to see.
9) Many stock market concepts are poorly introduced, especially to first timers.
10) I've already deleted the game.
I really think fame league is a poorly executed idea, in true Singaporean fashion. I'm wondering what their revenue model is like, and I'm actually very surprised to know that it even managed 27000+ monthly users. It may be a GREAT game, but I'm never going to find out, because the start of the game has already turn me off. Superficial as I am, I believe all casual gamers out there are the same.
More talk on UI. To begin with, why make a complicated UI and have a tutorial? The best facebook games can be played without looking at the help or tutorial, because its extremely intuitive. To casual gamers, UI is extremely important. I'm assuming the target is casual gamers, otherwise it really wouldn't make sense to infiltrate the facebook market with this application. I think the irony is a lot of games is that they make it very complicated, then they try to teach you how to use it.
Look at bejeweled blitz. In its early days, the game used a 760X600 (canvas size) screen divided into 4 to explain how to play the game, and that was ALL the help consisted of. It was simple and it worked (damn well at that). After 2 years of introduction, they have been careful in adding in small features which don't make your life harder. Its still just as fun today.
FAME league really needs to change its initial learning curve to attract more people. If it has spammed all 27000 users friends, I wouldn't be surprised that at least 20 million users has seen Fame League appear on their feeds. However, the numbers remain low, and essentially this boils down to the fact that the game isn't really fun enough to generate enough hype. Sure, you can have some local press coverage, but thats really not going to get you far.
Considering that I originally disagreed with many things that Yanjie shared during his presentation, I found myself very convinced of what he said during this group's presentation. I find it a little ironic that while they suggested focus for FAME league, the presentation itself lacked focus. Was he trying to tell us prediction markets was an interesting concept? Was he trying to tell us that the game sucked? This was extremely surprising, considering that the presenter was one of the better speakers out there.
Takeaways from the presentation:
1) The potential for Prediction market is huge
A quick google would tell you how big the potential of this is. Like the presentor said, its like an oracle to the future. Thanks to this presentation, I read up on prediction market. Although I din really get a clear enough picture of a prediction market from the presentation.
2) Less is more
The makers of FAME league clearly tried to bite off more than they can chew. Whether it is the UI design itself, or what they tried to achieve as an application. On facebook, less really is more.
3)It is indeed a waste of potential
If they don't capitalize on this, they have essentially wasted the first-mover's opportunity they have.
I must say that Prof Ben's question at the end of the presentation nailed it for me though: "If you think this app sucks so much, why are you even looking at it?"
I don't really think the creators intended to create a game that uses prediction markets. Its a trading/popularity game more than anything else. The prediction aspect of it is more of a side-feature kind of thing. I find the link between fame league and prediction markets at most trivial, even though the concept of prediction markets might have interested me.
During my googlewave meeting after the lesson, Henry said that we should support Singapore start ups. Much as I love hungrygowhere, but I support it not because its a Singapore startup, but because its good and provides me with what I need. Its just like how the FAS demands that Singaporeans should support the young lions instead of EPL. Like Prof has mentioned before, there are so many terrible Singapore start ups out there...
I guess you have to give kudos to Sociolico for their adventurous step forward. I for one will never have embarked on this project. FAME league was a waste of my time. I'm still darn annoyed that it spammed friends.
P.S. In other news, I feel extremely lucky to have been the first one to go first among everyone who quoted or used Prof Ben. Dilip's drawing lot skills FTW! I think Tomithy had a great draw to, to have gone after Pillow Fight and Causes.
P.S. In other news, I feel extremely lucky to have been the first one to go first among everyone who quoted or used Prof Ben. Dilip's drawing lot skills FTW! I think Tomithy had a great draw to, to have gone after Pillow Fight and Causes.
You got the message, actually.
ReplyDeleteWas he trying to tell us prediction markets was an interesting concept? Was he trying to tell us that the game sucked?
The message we decided upon before we did our presentation was this: prediction markets are awesome. Fame League is a classical example of a good idea done very very badly.
You've just repeated our message back to us, meaning: mission accomplished.
We spent about two hours or so rehearsing the presentation. Trust me when I say that everything you heard last night is in the presentation for a reason. More importantly, though, what isn't in the presentation isn't in there for a reason. We had a lot of time to consider what to put in and what to leave out, and if it's not in there, it's not vital to our message.
Lastly:
I must say that Prof Ben's question at the end of the presentation nailed it for me "If you think this app sucks so much, why are you even looking at it?"
There are two ways of learning. One is learning from success. The other is learning from failure. We merely chose not to limit ourselves to the former.
This was extremely surprising, considering that the presenter was one of the better speakers out there.
Thank you. =)
PS:
ReplyDeleteI don't really think the creators intended to create a game that uses prediction markets. Its a trading/popularity game more than anything else. The prediction aspect of it is more of a side-feature kind of thing. I find the link between fame league and prediction markets at most trivial, even though the concept of prediction markets might have interested me.
You are mistaken, but it's not your fault that you think that way. The only reason we knew it was centered around the idea of a Prediction Market was because we talked to the founders themselves. It goes to show how important execution really is on a brilliant idea. Now, ask yourself: how would you execute a prediction market, if you had, say, both the time and the algorithmic know-how? That is a far more valuable question to answer, as compared to a straight out criticism of what we all know to be a lousy app.
We spent about two hours or so
ReplyDelete...
...
it's not vital to our message.
I believe I won't be wrong to say every group have done this la. Otherwise Prof wouldn't have accepted us into this course would he? Some groups just did it better.
You've just repeated our message back to us, meaning: mission accomplished.
Well, I recorded all the presentations down on my laptop, so I had the pleasure of listening to it again and again.
Of course, this is just my opinion of the presentation, maybe my poor understanding skills contributed to this, and maybe all my classmates understood your message clearly. So, don't be too bothered by my opinions.
Now, ask yourself: how would you execute a prediction market, if you had, say, both the time and the algorithmic know-how? That is a far more valuable question to answer, as compared to a straight out criticism of what we all know to be a lousy app.
I don't think there is a point here, because I always believe talk is cheap. You can have fantastically crafted paper on how to implement an application, but can you actually do it? Its very in line with Mr. Ong Peng Tsin's statement on Business professors. If they are so great at business, why aren't they businessmen? Great The implementation of such a app is no mean feat. I can say and think all I want, it doesnt translate to me being able to implement it.
So, perhaps you're right, all I've done here is taken the easy way out, and critisised what I can see. I'm simple and superficial that way :P
Like I said, don't be too bothered about what I said la. Its just my thoughts. You may not have convinced me, maybe everyone else has been convinced :)
Henry said that we should support Singapore start ups.
ReplyDeleteSupport me =P I'm more Singaporean than some Singaporeans =)
I was talking to the President of Biz Alumni earlier who is a successful entrepreneur himself. We as Asia are rising. We can fight. Even Japan realises that. They are moving over to China and distancing themselves from the US. Look inward. Work local. Together, we can own the world.
As for the app, it gives me the impression of a game designed by a programmer. Really. Loads of functions, crappy UI. They definitely need a marketing guy. And a mentor at that.
I apologize. Maybe I was being too defensive. =/
ReplyDeleteI actually asked Yanjie about the presentation over dinner last night, and he said that the presentation slacked a little in the middle of the 7 minutes. But he was pleased with the overall structure and message, which he said was effective (especially with the questions we were asked after the seminar).
But then again - we're now taking some flak for choosing such a lousy app, and I cannot blame you for not seeing the point. So I guess I shouldn't be too presumptious to say that you got it, and so on so forth.
You can have fantastically crafted paper on how to implement an application, but can you actually do it?
You misunderstood me. I'm talking about thinking about how you might implement it. There's a surprising amount of lateral thinking involved when you're given one idea and you have to apply it to another situation, and it often leads to very interesting applications. I was merely suggesting that thinking about how you're going to implement it may lead you to surprising conclusions, some of which may add to your business sense when you go out and do what you want to do later, in the real world.
@Jon: Darn, I was hoping for more opposing voices to what I suggest. But do take my suggestions with a pinch of salt, as it may not be relevant in all cases.
ReplyDelete@Cedric: Eh HELLO? I told you all that I'm not some kind of a guru right? wah lao why take my personal opinion like it is some commandments sia??
But anyway, this was what I jotted down when u all were presenting. Do note that they are just personal opinions, so don't take my words as golden! Feel free to disagree! I left out "E" from MESA as I thought it is very difficult to weave that all in a 7 min presentation.
M: Prediction market - Clear, and it is obvious it is brought across well based on the kind of questions asked during Q&A.
S: Good Hook to start about prediction market. Generally flows well. Could tie your M better at the end. A bit lost in the middle as it is not clear how it links to the overall structure and your M.
A: Generally used well. But slides could be improve to guide the audience on what you are saying. Too often, there are one word slides that has little connection with what you're saying, and that obscures what you're saying.
@yanjie: i'm not fully in agreement with your presentation either :P i wanted to post a full post at first, but kinda got lazy.
ReplyDeletefor one, i dont think a good M makes a good message. if you cannot send your message across, even if you have the best message in the world, its not going to work out.
therefore, i disagree with your second myth too. the presenter is of utmost importance. think of your warrant officer from your NS days, now put him benjamin zander's presentation. would it have worked? well, probably would have, if you wanted a comical session.
using your cake analogy, nobody likes to eat cake and cake only. people like fudge, cream and everything unhealthy.
moreover, prof ben's it depends come in very useful here. there are times when a message is just not going to cut it. in some scenarios, the best presentation will be the one with the best frills. i have friends would totally disagree with you that eat a cake with lost of cream and little cake is not nice.
enough disagreement? haha. now for something positive. i actually liked your whole MESA concept. it can apply across presentations. IN FACT, i think it works pretty well for other things - like software development. take FAME league, for example, it has a great M, but all the frills blocked it totally out. of course it needs to be tweaked a little bit, but i liked the concept. maybe you want to look into it.
@cedric: yup i agree you were quite defensive in your posts. but hey, you actually noticed it yourself. not necessarily a bad thing, shows that you put importance on your own work. i did in fact try to subtly ruffle your feathers. (i leave you to figure out why)
I'm actually part of the team who did FameLeague too. And here are some of my comments.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, if you think the app sucks, you are correct. But it wasn't a bad idea, it was just a good idea executed wrongly.
And the presenters suck because they chose a lousy app to present? Hmm.. I don't think we should think it that way. And in what way does the presentation itself lack focus? It may not be the best presentation, (no one can do a best presentation, it's subjective), but I don't think it's as bad as you said. But I'm sure we could do it better..
And Prof Ben's comments are not god's comments. It was just a passing remark and ya we have our reasons to defend ourselves.
It's true that we should learn from those who actually succeeded, but shouldn't we also learn from people who actually has the potential but didn't succeed? Nobody said that we should choose only the best app to analyse.
Studying in IS for 4years, I came across so many case studies and research papers talking about how companies fail, and why they fail. If there were no one analyzing reasons why projects fail, they will not be any IS project management and software engineering techniques nowadays and now the CHAOS report will still continue to say that IT investments are a waste of money.
So let me reiterate what we actually want to bring across again. Prediction market has a great potential. Being able to make such a engine is remarkable. Fameleague is a great idea that wanted to tap on this huge resource (Facebook) to fulfill the prediction market's pre-requisite, the wisdom of crowds. But such an app failed. Why? Because it was a brilliant idea executed wrongly.
I believe that in CS3216 everybody has great ideas, maybe very innovative as well. But we must remember to focus on the idea and not make the same mistake as fameleague. Fameleague diversified too much in order to try and capture more audience, which is very wrong.
And well.. I hope I brought my point across now.
Continuation of YanJie's workshop..
Myth #4 Lousy case study != Lousy presentation..
And the presenters suck because they chose a lousy app to present?
ReplyDeleteI never did say that :) In fact, I praised the presenter. Check the transcript.
Essentially, all I was saying is, I got lost somewhere in the middle. Like I said, maybe its because my CPU is inferior.
Studying in IS for 4years, I came across so many case studies and research papers talking about how companies fail, and why they fail.
Learning from others failure is definitely good. I definitely learnt something from your presentation too.
To add on, (again, MY PERSON VIEW) I think just reading about case studies is not enough. One experience with failure beats reading 1000 cases on failures. I believe many of the local start-ups (esp those with graduates) have delved into as many case studies as you. Many of the issues simply just can't be learnt from school.
I hope the group isn't too offended :)
Maybe I misunderstood the short paragraph which states that our presentation lack focus. I'm quite sure that our presentation is focused on the prediction market but fameleague failed to grasp the execution well. But well, maybe this is only clear to us?
ReplyDeleteAnd may I remark on your personal view? It's really true that 1 experience with failure beats reading 1000 cases on failures. But why should go repeat the mistakes which happened before and you can avoid that? There's a chinese idiom which is called 重蹈覆辙 (I don't know if you understand) and we shouldn't 重蹈覆辙 (we shouldn't repeat the mistakes that were made in the past by other people).
I also believe that many of the issues simply just can't be learnt from school. But there's also a lot of things that we actually learnt from school and you didn't realise it. IMO, school is important.. But if one is only going through the motion just to get a degree to 'secure' his ricebowl, then its not good.
There are many things that can only be learnt in school because it is really a very sheltered environment for people to learn in peace. If one only aims for success, perhaps school isn't really that important, because dropouts can become successful too. But where else in the world can you really learn and only learn? No where else except school.
And well that's my opinion too.
- Hong Jun
@Jon: I love what you've pointed out. They are very good critiques. Please gimme more disagreement if you have, as it would be good to refine / revamp the suggestions I’m proposing.
ReplyDeleteI have a tendency to not dress up what I say and be direct, which some consider it as “fierce”. Please do not think that I mean it that way, or that I’m trying to suppress your opinions, as I think being direct and frank is the best way one can engage a person in a discussion.
Actually, what I shared that day is only 40% of what I wanted to share. I had to restrain myself as I think I need to deliver the MESA principles first and not over dilute it with too many contradiction. If I get people thinking about it, whether they disagree or not, I think I've achieved my objective.
for one, i dont think a good M makes a good message. if you cannot send your message across, even if you have the best message in the world, its not going to work out. therefore, i disagree with your second myth too. the presenter is of utmost importance. think of your warrant officer from your NS days, now put him benjamin zander's presentation. would it have worked? well, probably would have, if you wanted a comical session.
ReplyDeleteThe presenter aspect, I couldn't agree with you more. I agree whole-heartedly that the presenter's skill is really fundamental.
There are 2 reasons why I omitted that out from the session.
First, I’m pitching to a group of people who have sufficient presentation skills already. Therefore, the fundamentals is already covered, so there is no need for me to go through that. That is why I said I agree with the survey in general, about presenters needing to be engaging, body language, confidence etc. If I'm teaching of a bunch of secondary school students, I would be dealing with their confidence and body language first instead of MESA.
Second, the elephant in the room is the lack of audience-centric thinking to craft a good M and/or E. It is something which I have seen too often in presentations, and it is quite apparent from the survey. Hence, combined with the first reason, I decided not to talk about it as people are not here to hear what they already know. Therefore, I briefly mentioned it only.
But no matter what a presenter does, let’s face it - we are not borned equally. Some people have more charisma, some people have better looks, some people like me have enunciation problems at times (it shows right?) But yet, everyone has to give presentations in their life.
So how? This is where S and A comes in if you have a good M and/or E, but have personal problems that obscure your ability to deliver your ME clearly. That is why I showed the 2 speakers who are heavily accented - they used their Aids and Structure to amplify their Messages’ clarity and to create an Experience to overcome their personal “defects” (for a lack of a better word), ensuring the clarity of the message. Myth 2 is also meant to encourage your peers who are letting their accent affect their self-confidence, to show them that, hey, you can do give a good presentation too.
As for the Warrant Officer analogy you’ve brought up, here’s a thought experiment - if this is not a message you believe in, would you put in the effort to craft an E, S and A to amplify it? I have seen Hokkien Peng Warrant Officer giving one of the most engaging speech ever, cause he's sharing a Message that he strongly believe in, and he put it a lot of effort, consulting his men whether what he’s going to say is convincing enough. If we have a WO that is as passionate about classical music as Benjamin Zander, why isn’t the same effect possible?
using your cake analogy, nobody likes to eat cake and cake only. people like fudge, cream and everything unhealthy.
ReplyDeleteI do agree that not everyone wants a cake only, but it was more of saying that your cake must be good enough to stand on your own before you think of the cream and frills. It was out of my observation that too often, it’s the other way round. Sorry that i wasn’t clear on that. Do refer to the Yasmin Ahmad’s talk I post on the IVLE forum.
moreover, prof ben's it depends come in very useful here. there are times when a message is just not going to cut it. in some scenarios, the best presentation will be the one with the best frills. i have friends would totally disagree with you that eat a cake with lost of cream and little cake is not nice.
But then again, if a message is not going to cut it, then why present it? Why should people care then? This is what I meant by a lack of an audience-centric thinking.
True, some may think that having more frills and more excitement is the best presentation. But all the frills, without creating the right experience you want to create or the message you want to deliver, is nothing satisfying. True, people may want more cream and frills without the cake, but how many more bites are they going to take without feeling queasy? Similarly, how long can a frills-loaded-ME-exmpty presentation sustain interest?
People may talk about the frills you have, but where’s the message and experience you want to deliver? Can you say that your presentation is successful if you did not communicate what you wanted to communicate? That was the case of my friends who spoofed my lecturer and various accent for the presentation. Everyone remembered the jokes they crack, but no one remembered, or was even clear about what their argument was.
ReplyDeleteIt was also the case when I taught. Teaching content-heavy geography, the message from each lesson that is not an easy message to “make the cut” when dealing with attention-span short secondary school students.
I didn’t think too much about crafting the message in the past, but a lot on structure.True, they like how my slides are well-designed and how the structure is clear. That gets them talking and gets me an award too. But for lessons in which the content has little reasons for them to care about, it is a lot harder to sustain their interest, as compared to a well-crafted M that makes them realise why they should care.
I had colleagues who teach only with the whiteboard. But yet, they can sustain the students’ interest better than me, and their students recall things better, cause they spend more time crafting their M to hook them.
That is why, base on my personal experience with, that I cannot agree to this point. But perhaps you have a point base on your experiences as well.
. i actually liked your whole MESA concept. it can apply across presentations. IN FACT, i think it works pretty well for other things - like software development
Thanks! I use it to write my essays too. Lecturers are known to shoot at people who use flowerly languages and poor structure to obscure the lack of a clear argument (Message!)
Hope you aren't discourage or deterred by this barrage of comments. It shows that you've pointed out something that is important and communicated it clearly, which is why it elicited so many responses!
Once again, agreed.
ReplyDeleteSchool is not useless. School allows a safe environment for failure. School equips you with the basic technical skills. School lets you develop and discover your soft skills.
But in terms of business, I really think nothing can beat going out there and getting your hands dirty.
Of course, I absolutely agree with 重蹈覆辙. The problem with most people is that when they themselves are in the thick of it, they will make the exact same mistakes. I'm sure you won't be like them :)
Hmm, with regards paragraph, maybe i shall elaborate a bit. I felt it lacked focus because if you wanted to talk about prediction markets, you really should have just talked more about it. If you wanted to analyse the extend to which poor UI leads to a failure, you should have spent more time on it. Because, as you mentioned yourself in another blog, 7 mins is really short. Its not easy to focus on too many things. I would have been happy to hear more about EITHER of it, instead of a little of both.
Yup yup.
@Hong Jun: Remember the number 3? haha.......
ReplyDeleteAiyo! In the time I posted 1 post you posted 3 >.<
ReplyDeleteOk la, I kinda knew you were under the constrain of time, and chose to purposefully emphasis M and E over S and A for the purpose of the session. :P
Perhaps in some way you are right, if you're "defective", you should work on your M. but I think for people who are well-practiced in coming up with the M, they have to develop MESA as a whole. That way, you get the whole delicious cake.
As for the WO, i have about 2 in mind who dont even make sense when they are speaking about things they are passionate about. but i guess they are just them, and maybe I'm just damn bastard about it haha.
I'm interested to know how you are going to ensure M and E in every lesson in the future. I had my share of secondary school kids too, and I had to teach both knowledge, and soft skills.
Whenever it was lessons on soft skills, the message is THE MOST IMPORTANT. Dont have sure fail lol. But when you come to knowledge, I found it a great challenge to have a message. I mean you're hard-pressed for time to cover the necessary stuff.
Furthermore, I think its good to have an M over a long period, ie what is it I want my kids to takeaway after spending a whole semester with me. I think this is especially useful for development of kids holistically. (check Prof Ben and his use your common sense for 1101S).
If this MESA thing is you come up one... I think you should go brush it up and go sell it to some leadership company ahahaha! I see great potential in it.
Okie now I seem to understand where you are coming from. It was our dilemma too.
ReplyDeleteIf we focus on prediction market only, and how Fameleague tries to use this concept in the game, it would be hard for us to describe too because their UI is so hard to understand.
If we focus on UI only, on first look you will see that it looks cute and appealing. But it's isn't suitable for a prediction market game/application.
So in the end we focus on the prediction market and illustrate that their UI is the failing factor of the game.
If it were you, having seen and used the app, how would you think you would have done it differently?
@Yan Jie: Haha.. why are you testing me?
Personally, I would have chosen to focus on UI, after all this session was facebook seminar. Cos I think this app excellent app to teach "What not to do when you design UI"
ReplyDelete- cluttered = fail
- non intuitive UI + tutorial < simple UI
- less is more
Then I'll use briefly introduce prediction market to drive home the message that your UI can break you no matter how great your idea is. how wasted it was. something like that I guess.
I would have focused on prediction market if it was a random show and tell though.
Oh ya, I will tell everyone NOT to install this app. Haha.
But then like I always believe in... Talk is Cheap. I may not do it better than you guys. I'm not a presentation guru la lol. Don't listen to me ahahah.
@Hong Jun: you wanted to add the Myth no. 4. It's my way of saying yes or no. haha
ReplyDelete@Jon:
Perhaps in some way you are right, if you're "defective", you should work on your M. but I think for people who are well-practiced in coming up with the M, they have to develop MESA as a whole. That way, you get the whole delicious cake.
Everyone should work on their M. Good M is the vital to everyone, not just the defective. If you're defective, you need the SA to bring out your M (that is after you've worked on your M) to cover your defects! But even if you're not "defective", you still need your SA to make your M clear. So yes, you need to work on all, but you need to work on your core M first before working your SA to make your M clearer and better. So that if you don't have time for SA, at least your M is sent across.
I'm interested to know how you are going to ensure M and E in every lesson in the future. I had my share of secondary school kids too, and I had to teach both knowledge, and soft skills.
It has to answer the question - why should I care? It is difficult, but it's worth it, don't you agree?
Furthermore, I think its good to have an M over a long period, ie what is it I want my kids to takeaway after spending a whole semester with me. I think this is especially useful for development of kids holistically. (check Prof Ben and his use your common sense for 1101S).
couldn't agree more, but soft skills is best taught through example, not preaching. And I agree this is where M matters the most - cause a lot of times, they get the M, but couldn't resonate with it until a certain life experience.
If this MESA thing is you come up one... I think you should go brush it up and go sell it to some leadership company ahahaha! I see great potential in it.
I may have framed it as MESA, but what is said is actually common sense, right? :P
But then like I always believe in... Talk is Cheap. I may not do it better than you guys. I'm not a presentation guru la lol. Don't listen to me ahahah.
Neither am I lor.
All those people earning money from leadership models or whatsoever are also teaching common sense. They just package it nice nice, then earn lots of moolah!
ReplyDeleteIt has to answer the question - why should I care? It is difficult, but it's worth it, don't you agree?
well, i wish you the best :) i think it'll be a hard, but rewarding journey.
hmm, on your first point. i still dont' completely agree. how do i put this. i think M should be integrated in your process. once its second nature, then you just need to spend time on the rest, cos its part of your workflow. i dunno if I'm making sense.
incidentally, the sec sch teacher i looked up to most was my form teacher, who taught geog. muahahaha.
For the record, I've taught debate for two years, and competed for five. I can personally attest to Yan Jie's lessons. I learned most of it the hard way - through practice, but I reached the same conclusions he did. Speeches in debate are also 7 minutes long, the only difference being that the topics are released 15 minutes before you have to go up and speak.
ReplyDeleteThe Facebook application seminar is nothing compared to that.
I also find it odd that while you disagree with Yan Jie, I have difficulty in believing in your arguments. There is this rule I have, to never argue about something if I do not believe I can do better than what the other fella says. Do you walk the talk? Do you, personally, think you can give a better presentation than Yan Jie himself? I'm not sure myself, and I will only disagree with him where I know I've broken a rule and yet still given a good presentation. Doing otherwise would just make me seem like a douche.
Learning from others failure is definitely good. I definitely learnt something from your presentation too.
Your passive-aggressiveness is really quite startling here. I would suggest toning it down a little.
I think there's something that needs to be said for criticism. I've been writing for a pretty long time, and I can say with some confidence that it's always easier to attack and rip apart arguments. But it is original thought that is difficult, and scary, because then you are opening yourself up to future criticism.
You have attacked and attacked and attacked, and yet you have given us nothing constructive, nothing that shows that you have given some thought to how you might do things better. It is always easier to destroy than it is to create. I know this, because I sometimes fear that I would become a pundit.
And yet I am working to make sure that I am not. Notice that I speak only of things I have had experience with - I started Novelr, helped create Web Fiction Guide, did Undergroundsquare; cut my teeth in 9rules (which was in itself a startup/design community that blew up in a spectacular way), and have been writing since I was 7 and presenting since I was 15. I can speak on these topics because I know something of them. I do not fear the possibility of punditry because I can stand up and say that I have some experience in the matter.
In the same way, you may say that our presentation lacks this, and it lacks that. But I'm wondering at it, really, because I stood up and said exactly what I wanted to say, and you seem to have understood it, because you required no explanation from me and proceeded to tell us how to improve our presentation. If our presentation was really bad, I'd like to ask: would you not need to have us explain our content to you? And yet you seem to have gotten the major bits of our presentation correct.
One last point: we set out to get people thinking about prediction markets, and how there's this huge opportunity sitting right there in front of everyone. You'll notice that at the end I presented this as an opportunity. If you are entreprenuerial, like you really say you are, you would be thinking about how you can do this better, as opposed to just thinking about why they suck.
I wish you well in your future undertakings.
Learning from others failure is definitely good. I definitely learnt something from your presentation too.
ReplyDeleteYour passive-aggressiveness is really quite startling here. I would suggest toning it down a little.
Ok. Looking at this sentence again, I realised how badly it could have been misintepreted.
I meant this:
Learning from others failure is good. This message we well conveyed in your presentation (you know, by the method in which you raised how we should not have bad UI). I learnt that from your presentation.
Your presentation was NOT a failure. I'm not that big a douche. (i think) :S
Well, I sincerely apologise if you think I'm taking your presentation and ripping it to shreds. I had no such intention. Yup.
@jon
ReplyDeleteI agree. It's like the presenter's skills - once it is second nature, you don't have to think about it and it should be part of the workflow.
But many of the presentations I've witnessed, the problem is not doing the S and A. In fact, they spent more time building the frills on an empty core. It's like M is not in the process at all, when it should be at the centre of the whole integrated process.
Hope more will integrate M into their workflow!
@All,
ReplyDeleteThis is like becoming one big IVLE forum discussion.
1) It is interesting and good to see that you all are passionate about what you've talked about.
2) But passion do stir emotions. Hope all will try to keep a cool-head , be it in expressing your opinion, or interpreting others' opinions.
3) I hope there is no bad feelings between each other and hope that amends are made and miscommunications are cleared.
4) To be fair, I have openly asked for criticisms and suggestions about what I've said. Some may have resonated with it, some not, some misinterpret, simply because of different personal experiences. I appreciate both who defended or argued what I've shared, but hope that you understand why I'm adopting this approach.
The reasons is as follow:
a) to clear up misinterpretation
b) to try to convince people who are not convinced
c) to refine my ideas so that it can resonate with more people.
Hence, it is not my intention that discussions related to the idea I've shared to veer off its intended purpose, and hope that it remains that way.
We all discuss with that much passion because we all want the answer: what's the best way? What's the right way? We throw out our points of view and points out other's blindspots.
ReplyDeleteIn the process, words of hurt might have been sent, be it intentionally at a moment of heat, or unintentionally as it is placed in the wrong context to be misinterpreted. That being said, hope everyone will take a step back to have a clearer view, and extend a hand to make amends.
I think this discussion is good - but I think that Jon was careless in the way he expressed himself, causing Cedric et al. to be offended. Jon has apologized for the oversight, so it's all good.
ReplyDeleteTwo points I want to highlight:
1. When I asked the group "why did you pick this app?", I was not insinuating that the presentation was bad or that the group chose poorly. The truth of the matter is that the most common thing that students do is to look at the list of most popular apps and pick one from the list. Cedric et al. chose to do it differently. Your prof here is a big kaypoh and just wanted to UNDERSTAND why. :-P That's it.
2. I've never been a fan of dogma and the teacher is not always right.
My biggest problem with Singaporean students is that many of them seem to lead their lives with this underlying assumption that there are "model answers" to all questions. This is apparent at dialogue sessions with successful entrepreneurs for example, when you see students trying to tease out the "secret recipe" [Disclaimer: if your prof here is wrong and there actually is a secret recipe, please share with me hor. I always want to know.].
Maybe people read too many kungfu novels and think that there's some secret manual of mystic arts out there that can help you conquer the world? For now, please repeat after me: there are no model answers.
Yanjie may have shared with you some principles on how to structure a presentation. They are good. However, at the end of the day, if you need to talk to a bunch of people, just think simply: what the heck are you trying to do with them? What are you competencies and how can you best exploit them to achieve your purposes.
Sadly, most of us do not possess Obama's eloquence. :-)
@jon:
ReplyDeleteSchool is not useless. School allows a safe environment for failure. School equips you with the basic technical skills. School lets you develop and discover your soft skills.
actually, replace school with singapore and it still holds.
@cedric:
There is this rule I have, to never argue about something if I do not believe I can do better than what the other fella says.
arguing and sharing of views are not the same thing. no one successful that I have spoken to(CEO's, millionaires, bird nest kings, generals) think that they are always right. jon only shared his views on what he think is right. i fail to see what he has done that could create such a reaction.
1st thing i have learnt from all successful people. they always try to learn.
2nd thing i've learnt from speaking to really successful people.
experience don't count.
achievements do.
and when I mean successful people, i mean people with an influence on society in ways you cannot imagine. think mr benny lee, mr chan chong beng, mr ong peng tsin. they are all really successful people.
and one more thing. Please enlighten me as to where jon said he was entrepreneurial. i am very interested to know. really.
@prof:
glad you think that the teacher is not always right. I was having a chat with Mr Benny Lee(biz alumni president; successful entrepreneur himself) yesterday, and he said something related to this.
in the end, a mentor can only provide advice.
we have to make the decision ourselves. we have to trust our inner feelings. it's our business, not our mentors'.
For now, please repeat after me: there are no model answers.
ReplyDeleteIsn't that a meta-model answer about model answers? :P Sorry, the peon shall get back to work.
A = There exist model answers
ReplyDeleteB = Prof Ben is right
B -> A' (if prof is right, there are no model answers)
but
A -> B (prof is right only if model answers exist, and his is one)
therefore
A -> B -> A'
or in simpler english,
if there are model answers, prof is right, and there are no model answers.
... huh ^^?
yanjie WIN.
ReplyDeletehaha. prof, i think its going to be harder and harder for SGeans not be model-answer like. being one of the best exam-takers (check out IB, using the SG approach puts our schools top in the world) in the world simply cause us to have a model answer mindset. and since most of us are still studying in singapore, its hard to look out of our wells (井底之蛙). my friends overseas often find out more about their own ignorance during their time there.
the thing about model answer is that its only the model answer on stands while is not disproved. collaboration was definitely NOT the right way to do things 10 years ago. today, not embracing collaboration probably causes you to lose out. even in specialised industry like mining its being used. i think the book that talks about this is wikinomics: how mass collaboration changes everything.
jon
Hmm, I think the reason why this post regarding Fame League has attracted so much comments and opinions simply highlights firstly, how most people would share our views that prediction markets can be a big thing on Facebook, and how secondly, it was a poorly executed application by the founders.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I'm glad our group chose to do Fame League instead of some other hugely successful and popular app. What's the point of talking about an app which everyone already has heard of?
No worries Jon, and kudos to a great debate.
Yup.. No worries. This is an open discussion anyway. :)
ReplyDeletei think your group was extremely successful. after all, you guys managed to bring out 33 comments on my blog, far surpassing any others :)
ReplyDeleteand at the end of the day, i become the happiest person here ^^
i'm actually interested to hear more about what the founders themselves think. 27k users was no mean feat... how are they going to head on out from here? i believe all our classmates would also be interested to find out :)
you guys managed to bring out 33 comments on my blog
ReplyDeleteI'm floored by your strategy of starting a flame war to get people to post comments on your blog. :-)
Damn, talk about thinking out of the box. :-P
@Bernard:
ReplyDelete"What's the point of talking about an app which everyone already has heard of?"
i think there should be a mix of good apps and apps that are not good yet. (notice that i have chosen my words very carefully, i tried not to use bad apps).
For people who have heard of the app:
(Case 1) some probably havent tried the app so there will be something that they can learn from the presentation.
(Case 2) for those who have used the application, they can challenge the presenters if the latter made any remarks which they feel is incorrect. And this usually leads to a very lively discussion...[like how I challenged Sebastian when he presented on Texas Hold'em, i can only hope that his group did not take it personally.]
Either case, there is definitely something interesting to learn abt the app from the presenters (cos most of the presenters during the seminar are v.good) regardless of how popular the app is.
oh and btw, for those who are interested, the current word count for this entire blogpost (i.e. post + comments) is 8334 words.
ReplyDeleteWOW!
Damn, talk about thinking out of the box. :-P
ReplyDeleteGenius. You should be an entrepreneur man =P
Or at least a politician. You sure as hell know how to make people swallow hook, line and sinker. Go on. Singapore needs you =P Go fulfil your destiny =) dun waste your talent
@Ji Wei: Make it 12 000 and we can publish a 15MC Honours Thesis!
ReplyDelete@yanjie: unfortunately, i am not in arts. my professors expect to see equations :(
ReplyDelete...woohoo, i made the 40th comment.
I'm looking forward to meeting you over coffee, Jon. =)
ReplyDeleteA few things:
1) the comment I left up there was actually drafted and rewritten twice in a half-hour period. Got two peers (who were observing this comment thread as it developed) to read it before I posted, and I even asked Prof for permission (okay actually I asked for permission to flame; he said be nice; and so I toned down sikit)
Both parties agreed that it would be good to post the comment, seeing as they both thought (mistakenly, as Jon has corrected above) that Jon was being needlessly incediary with his comments on our/Yan Jie's presentations.
@Ji Wei: Fame Leagues is lousy, don't worry. You don't have to mince your words. ;-)
arguing and sharing of views are not the same thing.
@Laurence: You might be interested to learn that there is a difference, and the difference depends on the context of the argument. (See also: Paul Graham on arguments)
If the argument is one where there is no 'correct' answer (i.e.: religious debates or political debates) the arguments are certain to devolve into the worse kinds of debate possible (i.e.: a flame war). There is an added element to this, in that a) religions are part of a person's identity, and b) there is no lower threshold to arguing about religion - that is to say, everyone feels that they are able to defend their own religion, as opposed to debates on Lisp, say, where only those who are of a certain level of skill may feel that they have something to contribute to the debate.
In this particular case, what we have is an argument about better presentation principles. It has both a) an objectively correct answer (in that if you get certain principles right you will be able to give a good presentation, though these principles are hard to learn on their own) and b) you have to be above a certain treshold of skill to contribute to the discussion.
If I were to argue with you about Scheme, for instance, my argument would be discredited by the fact that I don't know Scheme (or even that I am a lousier programmer than you are) and you would probably think of me as a douche.
You are right in saying that sharing of views should be liberal, and that everyone should have a right to give their opinion on a matter.
However, this only applies to topics that do not have a simple, objective answer - for instance questions like 'What is the meaning of life?', or 'What is entrepreneurial spirit?' Nobody can claim to have a set of objective, complete answers to these set of questions, and so our society dictates that we should all be able to share our opinions with each other, without fear of reprise.
But on topics such as 'What makes a good presentation?' or 'What makes a good entreprenuer' - these questions usually have a set of underlying, 'true' answers, and because those answers are hard to find, we usually turn to people with experience to discover what they may be. A 'sharing of opinion' argument doesn't work in this scenario, simply because it doesn't matter whether you get to share your opinion or not - if you are credible, then perhaps there may be some reason to it; but if you are not, then you are not helping the purpose of the original discussion, that is to find the truth of the matter; or the right answer, if you will.
@Laurence, continued:
ReplyDeleteno one successful that I have spoken to(CEO's, millionaires, bird nest kings, generals) think that they are always right. jon only shared his views on what he think is right. i fail to see what he has done that could create such a reaction.
There are a couple of responses to this, and I shall run through them quickly: I do not think that I am always right, but I think that on the matter of presentations (in this particular case, at least) Yan Jie is right, and I look back upon my five years of debating and agree completely with what he has to say on the matter. There is an objective way of measuring this: am I a good presenter? Is Yan Jie a good presenter? If we are, then does it not stand to reason that there is something about presenting that we understand?
I have no argument against what Jon thinks is right. However, in this particular argument, there is an objective, provable answer, and believe as he might that Message is unimportant, that belief no longer holds when you're up there and you have to present and the audience is yawning throughout your presentation.
2nd thing i've learnt from speaking to really successful people. experience don't count. achievements do.
Please justify that statement. I am interested to know how you came to that conclusion.
and one more thing. Please enlighten me as to where jon said he was entrepreneurial. i am very interested to know. really.
I believe I assumed. I must apologize. Sorry, Jon.
'What makes a good presentation?' or 'What makes a good entreprenuer' - these questions usually have a set of underlying, 'true' answers
ReplyDeleteHmm... I'm not sure I agree on that point. I believe the merit of a presentation and its presenter are highly subjective, and depends a lot on the audience. What do you consider the 'true' answer to a good presentation? If it's as universal as that, you'd think, say, a lecturer with many semesters of good reviews would be at the very least an acceptable presenter, right? I'm currently taking a module by such a lecturer, yet today has been the first time I kept awake in his lecture, due to me repeatedly cursing his style (gross lack of explanations), speed (made me sleep while coding), and slides (missing diagrams and explanations). And I was far from the only one. Obviously, my criteria for a good presenter was significantly different from a large portion of the class. So how would you quantify the merit of a presentation? No matter how stringent the criteria, there will still be someone who disagrees with them.
A = There exist model answers
ReplyDeleteB = Prof is right
A->B (prof is right only if model answers exist, and his is one)
@Patrick: "Only if" means B->A :P
What's the point talking about an app which everyone already has heard of?
@Bernard: So that YOU learn about it :) It's like asking what's the point of proving Fermat's little theorem when everyone else has already proved it?
@Patrick: yes you're right, of course. There is some arbitrary line between what makes a good presentation, and a great one, and that line probably lies within the viewer himself. That being said, from experience, MESA does contribute quite significantly to what makes a good/bad presentation, and there are certain base rules that separate the good ones from the bad ones.
ReplyDeleteThat's not the crux, though, of my comment. I was pointing out that there are certain scenarios in which the 'everyone is merely expressing his/her opinion' does not hold true.
Yan Jie is right
ReplyDeleteI never said he was wrong. But there can be more than one right answer to any question. If there's another lesson that I have learnt from talking to all these people, it's this: Keep an open mind.
What you think is right, may just be one part of the answer. And unless you have an open mind you will never find the other parts. There are alot of things out there that we do not know that we do not know.
Please justify that statement. I am interested to know how you came to that conclusion.
That wasn't said by me. It was advice given to me from all these learnt men, successful people. Advice that I thought I'd share with everyone.
I was arrogant in the past. I shut myself to the outside world thinking I knew it all. I was worst than what you are now. I thought I had experienced everything given my family background. I was part of organising committees in events, exco/founders in CCAs. I thought I had all the experience i needed to be the authority on everything.
Then this man, one of the bird nest kings of Indonesia, a family friend, and my biggest benefactor, said this to me. He is a very low key guy, so I will not name him.
"What you have experienced are all small stuff. What you have achieved are not worth mentioning. The big stuff you have experienced are all not yours, they are your dad's.(I actually worked in my clan business for a while, as a director of sales and technology, and mind you, it was Indonesia's biggest computer distributor once, until they decided to retire and leave it on auto-pilot)
No one cares about what you have experienced. Because until you have achieved something worth mentioning,something that has provided value to the world, you are just another one of those guys on the streets. So don't tell me about your experiences and how good you are. Because your experience is useless if after having them you are still who you are now." That changed my life.
And frankly, every single rich man I have spoken to has the same idea. You can have all the experience in the world. But without the achievements, no one cares about you. You prove yourself first, before making yourself the authority on the matter. Steve Jobs is one person who has proven himself. I respect the man.
And regarding 'What makes a good presentation?' or 'What makes a good entrepreneur', can I highlight that none of the very successful entrepreneurs that I have spoken to has told me that there is a definitive answer? They have told me, you have to figure it out yourself. We dun know it all too. At best we can give you part of the answer.
You mind sharing what you know that respectable gentlemen like Mr Ong Peng Tsin and Mr Benny Lee do not about entrepreneurship? I'm ready to hear.
And on that point on Paul Graham's essay. You are that good that you know that there exist a correct answer on what makes a good presentation? Then why don't you quit school now, and join the marketing industry if you are really that good. I'm sure they will be chasing after you.
And do you realise one thing about the comments so far?
You're making an assumption that jon does not have presentation experience and that he's not a good presenter, just because he doesn't wear it like a shining medal of honor.
He doesn't go around boasting about it. He is good. I know he is. But he is humble. He does not go around showing that he is experienced, that he is Mr Know-it-all.
Yanjie also never made that assumption that he was all knowing, and that he knows everything there is to know about presentation. He is still open to ideas from anyone and I think that sets the two of you apart. Earning my respect isn't easy. And I respect Yanjie alot, especially after this discussion.
I don't care what your response will be. I'm not here to convince you or anything. If you desire to continue living thinking that you know all there is to know about presentation, or that Yanjie knows everything, and whatever anyone else you deem inferior to you says is rubbish, by all means, go ahead. Gd luck. It's your life.
ReplyDeleteBut I want to make one thing clear.
Jon Lew is my friend. And I dun take kindly to anyone, who attack my friends without justification. You want to attack my friends, you better make sure you know what you are talking about. You don't attack them without justification.
And I think you have crossed the line here when you suddenly shot out of nowhere while jon and yanjie were having a perfectly civilised discussion on presentation.
Sigh. I was looking to have a decent debate with you, Laurence.
ReplyDeleteSince that is not possible, I shall apologize and take my leave from this comment thread at once.
As a 3rd person who tracked some of the comments here and there, these are my thoughts...
ReplyDeleteI was slightly "ruffled" by how Jon Lew appeared to be constantly churning out very negative statements about everything. I think it's unhelpful that he did not offer to provide anything constructive initially. I'm amazed at how Yan Jie took everything in his stride. If I thought there were issues with Yan Jie's presentation, I would have approached this in an entirely different and more constructive manner. (I can't however because I had to leave the workshop early.)
With that said, I don't believe that Jon Lew or Cedric ever had any intention to attack one another. Instead, they were arguing about what they disagreed of. However, tones are often difficult to interpret on the internet and this resulted in misunderstanding. It got heated. However, I believe that both sides are mature enough to deal with this and I see that both sides have cleared up their misunderstandings.
And I think you have crossed the line here when you suddenly shot out of nowhere while jon and yanjie were having a perfectly civilised discussion on presentation.
Cedric was the first to reply in this thread and the conversation went for a bit before Yan Jie came into the picture. So no, Cedric did not hijack the thread.
Laurence, your reply towards Cedric is very uncivil. I will go on to say that you are giving contradictory signals and are acting in a manner that you yourself would disapprove of. I think you are the one that is becoming personal and crossing the line. Read what you just wrote, I think it is far worse than anything anyone has wrote here.
hmm, i guess i went overboard and was a little, when i went into the level of personal attacks.
ReplyDeleteI apologise for that. i shouldn't have gone into the personal attacks area. for that, i apologise.
thx to jon low for highlighting that. as I've said, I still got lots to learn.
*a little emotional
ReplyDeleteJonathan Low, you are a 3rd person as you have said, why do you get ruffled? Haha, but I hear there are some people who actually "feel" more, i.e. they are more emotive and experience what they think others experience.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, I thought J. Lew's statements were fine initially. I have no idea how this turned into a flame fest. Are we even on the original topic anymore? Why is it that we have all joined in to discuss exactly when it has turned unhealthy. It's like when you know someone has the STD, Heomphilark, and touching them. Yuck, man.
Sorry, back to topic, where I defend Jonathan. Jonathan, would you rather Yan Jie was not thus calm and good natured, and lashed back? Then this exciting thread would have 100 posts+ already. I think there is nothing wrong with Jonathan posting what he thought, just that ego's clashed. And they shouldn't. But I agree that perhaps their true intentions got lost over the internet. The internet is a scary thing!!
And Jonathan, you are being incredibly insulting also.Read what you just wrote, I think it is as bad as what everyone has wrote here.
@Shannon
ReplyDeleteuh, which is which Jonathan? i'm confused.
What the... did I ruffle your feathers somewhere Miss?
ReplyDeleteSorry, back to topic, where I defend Jonathan. Jonathan, would you rather Yan Jie was not thus calm and good natured, and lashed back? Then this exciting thread would have 100 posts+ already. I think there is nothing wrong with Jonathan posting what he thought, just that ego's clashed. And they shouldn't. But I agree that perhaps their true intentions got lost over the internet. The internet is a scary thing!!
I have no idea what you're talking about. Which Jonathan are you talking about? Can you be clear about what you're saying.
It's like when you know someone has the STD, Heomphilark, and touching them. Yuck, man.
I don't know what to say other than this comment is really bitchy. But that's just you right? What's new Shenanigan?
And Jonathan, you are being incredibly insulting also.Read what you just wrote, I think it is as bad as what everyone has wrote here.
You are also incredibly insulting. You are no better.
I am also confused. But this is starting to become rather entertaining.
ReplyDeleteTime for a little XKCD!
http://xkcd.com/386/
=P =P =P
As the prof, I have the privilege of having the last word on this post thank you. Let's all chill out and not post more comments here for the next 24 hours?
ReplyDeleteI think this post has instructive value (thanks everyone for participating so actively), but I think it's also time for people to spread the comments around and go visit other blogs yeah? :-)
Jon Lew already has his quota of comments for the FB seminar assignment.
@Jon Low, and this might sound sexist - but you do not pick a fight with a lady thank you. Bad form. :-'(
@yanjie / Pat:
ReplyDeletenice one, pat you just proved yourself to be god once again, there's no denying it. You too Adhiraj~~
@Cedric / Laurence:
haha, was about to point that out. Laurence's the one radiating pink aura of I want to be an entreprenuer... (sry internal joke). When i was working a few months back as a sales and marketing assistant, I learnt one very important thing, never assume. It can be VERY fatal under wrong circumstances, be it in a group work or dealing with clients and what not. Try not to assume, it'll seriously cost you.
That being said, I do believe that every one is entitled to their own personal comments and thoughts. In fact i think it's really good for people to voice out and challenge different view points out there.
arguing and sharing of views are not the same thing. Whether it is the same or not, i believe it increases the depth of the arguement and provides different perpestives. What is really important here is that you don't limit and mould you mind. Take in different view point(if people point it out, there must be a reason behind it) and actually LEARN from it. This further encourages people to really think through stuff and not be so naive and take things as it comes. There's always a flip side to a coin.
I guess that's the problem with the Singapore culture. Though Singapore(recently) do enourage public view, we neither cultivated the culture nor the correct enviornment to nurture such interactions. We've been told to choose our words carefully, don't defy your elders, follow the path's that set, it leads to success. This results in majority of Singaporeans not accustomed to voicing their views and always sticking to the rules.
Speaking about rules, I really do not believe that there's only 1 answer or a model answers, especailly for topics such as what makes a good presentation / presentor. Different successful presentors each have their own unique style that makes them, well unique. If everyone follows some or the same kind of rules, what distingush one good presentor from the other? While there are already certain guildlines that can lead you to decent presentation, there's no definite nor best solution out there. One can only learn by accepting views of others, process it, work on it while keep praticing. In this case, experience help but should never hence determine or fix you style of presentation. There's more than one way of presentation and if you don't keep on trying different ones, how'd you know if it's the best. Humans are meant to learn and improve, not just be satisfied with what they have and remain rooted. I think that can be applied to daily life.
I think, Jonathan, that the Jonathan I am defending is NOT you. There is no need to distinguish. It's like you cannot tell left and right, good and evil apart. No need to say who is which.
ReplyDeleteI am bitchy? Who started the name calling, Jenathon??? Do you even know what Hermophilrk is? Bet you don't! So you act smart. Well, I won't enlighten you. You go Google it.
You are the NUMBER ONE insulting person here, to me anyway. You need to self reflect, then come back to me with a 5 page apology, or I'll uhh. It'll be nasty.
In addition to that, i do believe that regardless of one's experience or not, they can still provide opinions. Though I do agree that they might not know the mini technical stuff, nonetheless, their views are important as well. If not, why do major talks and what not have feedback forms. The audience aren't certainly expert what ever the content was. The chinese idom goes, 旁观者清 (should be correct right..) sometimes, if you're too deeply involved, your view points are restricted and it takes someone from the outside or a noob to point out that heh, there's such a point that perhaps you never really noticed its significance. I guess, while you hold you opinion, it's good to take in others as well and keep improving:)
ReplyDeleteMoving on:
actually, replace school with singapore and it still holds.
we're still very much in a sandbox country. We're soooo sheltered and protected by our government that it's actually rather scary. I believe we should really dare to take that one step out of the box. I believe there's a common analogy going out there about how Singaporean like to make sure that everything is 100% okay before going ahead and do it. Signaporeans are sometimes really afraid of losing or failing (though it's perhaps due to the very competitive and "harsh" enviornment we're brought up in whereby if you fail, it's hard to pull yourself up and have another attemp) Well for me, I think the most basic things falls down to basics. It's okay to take baby steps and stumble but your foundatino must be there so that you can build upon it. My group's application's like that too. We've concentrated on our backend stuff and make sure that it's well structured so that it can support future add-ons before doing the front end stuff. If you don't set your foundation right, it'll get tough if you want to add more stuff but dun have the back end to support it. Basics Basics Basics, foundation, foundation, foundation, it's all very important!!
That said, this blog is like a forum that's sooooo hot, *fans myself* Everyone has really unique ideas and I'd love to read more and learn from you guys >w<
guys and gals, the prof has spoken. let's take a break here for 24 hours and calm down.
ReplyDeleteTake it from a guy who got emotional and regretted, ok?
OK ALTHOUGH I AM STILL SO ANGRY I DID SELF REFLECTION and realized maybe I was being mean.
ReplyDeleteSorry, Jonathan :'(
Forgive me, let us waive that apology!!!
with regards to the development of this thread, I have two things to say, but it is best left unsaid. I could provide you with the link to infer though
ReplyDelete1) Thing 1:http://www.101zenstories.com/index.php?story=3
2) Thing 2: Especially the last 5 mins. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_f_3FiiTYk
With regards to what I've suggested, I would appreciate if you could engage me as well about what you think, but I think it would be more constructive to do it at IVLE forum or my blog lah.
wah... looks like I've missed the whole action.
ReplyDelete